Poobah is a very successful businessman, and a real expert in numismatics, the art of collecting coins. In this episode, we discuss how he came up with the idea to build an app for coin collectors that allows them to keep track of their inventory, how does the grading process work, and how to grow a niche app.
Poobah: You can learn, uh, you know, kind of what to look for, uh, that's why you want to take time out. Anybody who's interested in learning, uh, about coin grading and what it takes to get back good grades, you want to take some time to learn what the graders would be looking for.
Jesus Vargas: Hello, everybody this is Jesus from LowCode Agency, and today we are in another podcast of Low Code. Today we have a very exciting guest, he's Grandmaster Poobah, he's a coin collector and he has an app that he uses to track his coin collection, very unique, very niche, which I'm very excited to talk about with him.
So Poobah welcome to the podcast, how are you today?
Poobah: Thank you Jesus, glad to be here, and I appreciate you for having me.
Jesus Vargas: Sure, thank you. So I want to start there. I mean, you collect coins, which is something, at least for me, very unique, and when we spoke the first time, it was like the first time I, I spoke with someone who did this.
I know you do... do you do this professionally? Or, uh, is it like a side business? Isn't not even a business or a hobby? Tell us a little bit more about that.
Poobah: Okay, cool. Yeah, it started out as a hobby, uh, and, and it still is for the most part, um, I've since dropped the hobby thing because hobby insinuates that it's just something that you do just for the fun of it.
Now it's for numismatic to make it sound like it's something serious, but that's what it is essentially by way of definition, uh numismatics is the hobby of coin collecting, and also collect other things like bank notes and art, you know, so, but my, my, my passion is numismatics and I've been at it for, I want to say about maybe two and a half, three years strong.
Uh, so it's something that I've grown to love over time. Um, God has shown me quite a bit and I'm just along for the ride, selling...
Jesus Vargas: How do you, how do you get started in that?
Poobah: Uh, I was checking out on online auction a few years back and came across some coins which happened to be Washington Harvard 50 cent commemorative pieces, and they were in holders, for so, folders that you can see, turn them around, see the obverse and the reverse. And I'm like, man, that's really great, African-Americans on US currency, and then all the Booker T. Washington coins as well. And so those were raw when I got them in, I started doing...
Jesus Vargas: What does that mean?
Poobah: Uh, raw coins are coins that have not been certified, coins that have not been graded by third party graders.
So with the raw coins that I got in, I, um, examined them and of course appreciated them for what they were. But the next question that came to mind was, you know, what are they worth? And through research, I was able to discover third-party grading companies and how they fit into the grand scheme of things to add worth and value to coins in the collection, and from there, the rest is history.
Jesus Vargas: So these, these companies that do the grading, like right now, you know, there's a, maybe I don't want to say your bubble though, but there's a lot of activity around collecting like Pokemon cards or I don't know, baseball player cards, are these companies that grade coins the same ones that grade these kinds of collectibles, or is it a different thing?
Poobah: Well, most of the third party grading companies do authenticate items beyond numismatics, Collect Universe as an example, and then certainly NGC, and they've got subsidiary companies that deal specifically with comic books and all types of collectibles. But yes, they, they do authenticate and grade more than just coins.
Jesus Vargas: Okay. And then for, for numismatics I understand that even though it's a very niche thing, uh, you are focused on a specific subset of coins. Is that right?
Poobah: Right now yes. It started out with, um, Booker T. Washington commemorative coins, uh, and they were made in 1946, and then the last of the classic commemoratives were the Washington Carver commemoratives. So that's where I began, and...
Jesus Vargas: How many coins were minted for those?
Poobah: Oh, my goodness. I mean, they just go for a, go through each year, from 19, for BTWs 1946 to 1951, and then, uh, from Washington Carvers, I should know this, I want to say 1951 to, uh, goodness, I need to check that you would think I would know...
...but for each year there are mints, all right, you've got the [uninteligible] mint, the Denver mint, San Francisco mint, and for each of the year, they were put out three different coins from each of the mints. So you've got a large number of coins for each set. The Booker T. Washington set, the Washington Carver set. So aside from that, to answer your initial question, um, I focused primarily on those two commemoratives, just focused, honed in on those specifically, but I also collected other types, which would be the Morgan dollars, Morgan silver dollars, and, um, I did, I'm doing...
Jesus Vargas: Which were not originally, uh, like collectibles. Because one, I understand that there are the collectible items, so when they were minted, the coins, they were always meant to be collected.
Did the dollars were meant to be collected as well or not? Like where they were used in general and then some time people started collecting them?
Poobah: Uh, midway through it I got caught up, so I didn't catch the full question, one more time please?
Jesus Vargas: So I understand that some coins that you have were originally made to be collected right? As a collection, but are there other coins that were not meant to be collected and then at a certain time in history in the last years, people started collecting them because there weren't many around or something like that?
Poobah: That's a good question. I just, you know, what people choose to collect is really on them, you know, I just think that for now in today's time and today's market, you have some coins that are more popular than others.
Uh, Morgan doll, for example, is something that you get a lot of people, you know, because they, they go back, you know, 1878, uh, through 1921, you know, you've got collectors, you know, as old as our grandparents and earlier than that, I've always liked those around big silver coins, but they tend to be very attractive, but...
Part B of that answer is, you have some of the other types of coins that are gaining and even regaining popularity, and I surmise that the early commemorative coins, uh, are coming back and they will have a greater, um, they'll have a greater demand. Now's a good time in my oppinion to start buying and looking for early silver classic commemorative coins, yeah.
Jesus Vargas: Do you think, like I have delved a little bit into NFTs and these new technology about collecting digital products, if we can say that, uh, and it's funny to see how sometimes some products go from whatever value, a few hundred dollars to hundreds of thousands of dollars, uh, based on trends, or based on, I don't know, maybe we don't even know based on what. What is the, why do some coins are, let's say trendier than other ones in terms for, for collectionists? Is there a trend based on, I don't know, based on when they were minted or is it just a trend of like these years or these times people are flighting X types of coins and a few years ago they were not just because they were not as trendy or as, I dunno, visible or something?
Poobah: Yeah. That's a tough one because a lot of it goes back to personal preference. Um, if you like collecting old nickels because you liked the style and the design of it, then that's something that, you know, you, you, you enjoy collecting, and the market pushes a lot of, uh, what's in demand.
And what I mean by that is what coins are selling the most, uh, what coins appreciate over time, uh, what coins within certain grade in the grading structure, uh, uh, are worth more than others. So the market has a lot to do with it. You've got professional coin grading, uh, services, PCGS, like NGC, um, they are the two top third-party grading companies and they've got an extensive amount of tools and resources that are available now than there was many years ago.
So by even accessing the price guide values, and even the population reports, you can gain a great deal of insight on how the market is moving, um, paying attention to certain sources, such as E-bay and other auction houses. Yeah. And you know, it's something that you will, you'll learn over time and that's something I still am doing.
Um, I've learned a great deal in a short amount of time, and that's what makes it fine. It really does, yeah.
Jesus Vargas: Right. Do you know the, like how big the industry is in terms of how much money there is? Uh, in coin collecting?
Poobah: My goodness, like I have seen...
Jesus Vargas: Is it a billion dollar industry? Probably yes.
Poobah: I would venture to say that it's, that it's definitely there. I mean, it's not uncommon for auction houses to even in a week to pull down multiple millions of dollars in just a single coin, uh, so you wouldn't be surprised. It's, it's kind of hard to gauge it and that's a little outside of my expertise, but you know, you've got coins collectors, not just in the United States, but all around the world.
Um, those third party grading companies, as an example, they've got offices in, in foreign countries. And so you've got US coins and then you've got foreign coins. You've got, uh, you know, of all different types of, uh, different countries, because most countries, uh, produce some type of currency and coins. And so obviously depending on the condition of the coin, um, it, it, a lot of it has to do with the condition of the coin, as well as you know how old it is, um, and with that being said, a lot of the modern coins that come out, like the silver eagles, there's one release just about every year.
Uh, but that's it, that spans back many, many years. I don't know when they started that program, but modern coins tend to be a little less in value as compared to a lot of the older coins, uh, you know, the Standing Liberty quarters, um, the commemoratives, uh, and all of those. So, um, the older the coin, obviously, and the better the condition that it is, speaks to the rarest, right?
You'll hear this ... kicked around here and there, conditional rarity of the coin, and that's what it ultimately speaks to, uh, in terms of value, yes, sir. So, um, you know, a coin, I've got coins that are here, that, you know, you'd be surprised how much a single 50th cent coin can be worth, and how much of a single coin could sell for.
Uh, fortunately, uh, with the help of God on my side and blessing me in a multiplicity of ways, um, I'm the number two, I have the number to rank, the number to Booker T. Washington commemorative set on the PCGS set registry. And also for a Washington Carver 50 cent pieces, I'm the number three person in all of the world, and the piece of GSM registers. It's a major accomplishment, but I have seen quite a ... few hundred dollars to a few thousand dollars.
I've just seen some recently that, coins going to the hundreds of thousands of dollars, you would be surprised, yeah.
Jesus Vargas: Is there an up, like, is there an option for someone to find new coins in a private collection or something, and then the value of, uh, of that subset of coins going down? Or that, or it doesn't work that way?
Poobah: Well, repeat the question, I'm going to make sure I understand it correctly.
Jesus Vargas: So imagine that there are, um, I'm going to say a number, a thousand coins of Booker T. Washington. And then next year there's some private auction, or I don't know, in a, in an old house they find a hundred coins, right? So if there were a thousand coins and now there are 1,100 coins, does the value of the, of that subset of coins goes down?
Poobah: Not, not really, not so much based on that. Auction prices, and this is what I've discovered over the past few years, auction prices help to determine, uh, the answer to that question. Um, you know, it's hard to know because there is a set number of coins, uh, for, uh, a year and a mint.
And that could be a hundred thousand dollars. You have some Washington Carver commemorative that only have, that have a small mintage of 10,000, and even another coin that has a mintage of 6,000. So you have a mint, a low mintage of 6,000 for a single coin that was made in, I don't know, 1953 as an example in 1953, yes.
But then you'll have modern coins that were distributed and there were millions of them. Obviously the less number of coins there are, that were meant for particular ... there, the more valuable, yes sir. You know, if, if a coin comes out and there's, you know, 7 million that have been made it's, it's, it's not going to be that unique.
Jesus Vargas: So that's great, now let's, let's jump into technology. So you have an app where, that you use to track your coins, right? So how did you end up there? How did you get the idea to build an app, were you tracking your coins in a spreadsheet or in an old book? And then how did you find in this case glide and how did you thought like, "oh, let's build an app and then I'll use the app to track all my coins and my submissions". How did that happen?
Poobah: Uh, I'm a guy of systems, I enjoy systems. I'm organized, I'm not necessarily a need freaky by any stretch of the imagination, but I believe in the value of organizing things and, um, specifically for my, for the app that, uh, idea that I came up with, uh, there wasn't one quite like it on the market.
Uh, so it's TPG, which stands for Third Party Grading, a third-party grading app, uh, TPG tracker. And then just by simple definition, and just as a description, what it does is it tracks, uh, your submissions, your coin submissions to the third-party grading companies. So as I spoke about earlier, Um, whenever you have a raw coin and you want to send that coin in to be graded to a third-party grading company, what that TPG will do is number one, assess whether or not if the coin is authentic, you know, is it made of silver?
Is it making sure that it's not a knockoff, right? It's not a counter. And then secondly, what the third-party grading company will do is, um, they're going to determine the condition of the coin. And based on what's known as the Sheldon grading scale, they'll assign a grade to the coin and that scale ranges from zero up to MS 70 or Mint State 70. 70 is the highest score that you can receive or this highest grade that you can receive for a coin. So for my app, um, I find myself sending in quite a bit of coins, you know, over the years I've spent a ton of money having coins graded, um...
Jesus Vargas: Because if I'm not mistaken, you can submit your coins several times. So it's not like you're submitting all of your coins, you're submitting all of your coins constantly.
Poobah: Right, and that's mainly because grading is subjective. I mean, these are human beings that you send your coins into, and what you're doing essentially is you're paying them for their opinion. So, nobody is perfect.
In fact, I had to begin somewhere. The only reason I'm I'm as good as I am with, uh, judging the quality of a coin, and that's not to sound like I'm bragging, but with time comes experience. And so I may be looking at a, a raw coin and, uh, make the determination right through self grading that, hey, this point is, you know, a 66.
I may send that coin in to be graded at PCGS and they'll encapsulate it and I'll receive it back and they'll have the grade as a Mint State 64. Well in my mind, I'm thinking, wait a minute, I know I've got, I know, this is a 66. Why did they say was a 64? You know, I can't fault them for it, right?
So, but again, as you mentioned...
Jesus Vargas: Do they give you a reason or just the number? Do they give you a reason why they graded it at 64 or they, they just give you a number and that's it? Okay.
Poobah: Just the number which is the odd part about it, and that's something else that I'm considering, um, delving into a little bit more with another idea that I've got, but no, they do not provide a reason for why they give the grade the way that they do, you know, so you can learn, uh, you know, kind of what to look for, um, that's why you want to take time out. Anybody who's interested in learning about coin grading and what it takes to get back good grades, you want to take some time to learn what the graders would be looking for.
Uh, but essentially it's really hard to, when it comes to what graders are looking for, they're looking, they're looking at strike, uh, and I could break each one of these down, but it's strike, um, you have got the, um, I lost my thought that fast, you got the strike, you've got the luster, right, which speaks to the activity of the coin.
Uh, another grading component would be, uh, the eye appeal which is the overall look of the, of the coin, which typically includes, uh, toning. And I'll talk about it a little bit more about toning in a little bit, in just a little bit. And then the, another component would be the... um, eye appeal, luster, strike, and then, uh, I'm, I'm missing one more.
It'll come to me, but of those components, I will think of this before this is over with, but, um, of those different components, you know, that factors into what the overall grade of the coin uh, will, will come out to be. So, um, if it's got a weak strike, then that's going to knock off some points. Um, if it's got little to no luster, that's gonna pretty much indicate that the coin has been in circulation.
Um, eye appeal, again if you've got some toning or some oxidation on the coin, does it look attractive? And if it doesn't look attractive and it takes away from the appearance of the coin, that's not going to benefit the grade overall. So, um, yeah, that, that, that basically is what graders look for. And I know there's one more component, I'm going to find this stock because it's troubling me now. I probably cause I'm big headed on it too much, but go ahead.
Jesus Vargas: So, okay. So you were using, what were you using before using the app to track all of your coins and your submissions, a spreadsheet or something else?
Poobah: I was using the spreadsheet.
Hang on for just a second, man, I got to get this down, this is troubling me. Uh, let's see, strike luster, there we go. How I forget that. Surface preservation, right? Surface preservation was the other thing that I was trying, I should know this, as much as I look for bag marks, in any type of marks that are on the coin.
Thank you for being patient while I find the answer it would have been on my mind, I wasn't able to get that out. Strike, luster, surface preservation, and then eye appeal, and that's what graders typically look for when it comes to, you know, uh, the, the, the grade of the coin, uh, on that scale from zero two to 70.
Jesus Vargas: How many, how many options are there from, from zero to the best score there is?
Poobah: Um, actually there's quite a bit, but primarily what you look for is whether or not a coin has been circulated versus uncirculated. So you'd get, you know, a lot of descriptors, uh, which essentially would be, you've got about uncirculated, you've got good, you know, the lower score all the way up, but I just typically look at it, uh, divided between two, you know, has the coin been circulated?
And if it's not circulated, then that means it must be in mint state condition. So it is, you know, hot off the press, hot, just, it just came out of the mint. And so minted grades range from 60 to 70, everything below be considered circulated coins.
Jesus Vargas: Ah, I see. Okay, I get, I get it, I get it. Okay, cool. Do you buy coins to resell them? Or do you buy coins because you want to have the best collection or the largest collection?
Poobah: Uh, lately I've been finding myself doing a little of both, you know, I, I avoid as a true collector, um, when you've got really nice pieces and, uh, coins that, that not only look good, but, uh, are worth a lot in value.
You, I typically don't want to come off of them, I don't. But then there are times when, you know, you'll see a coin and then you're like, well, you know, I could stand apart with it and you know, I'll put coins up for auction and I'll sale some. Uh, I'd even trade some depending on, you know, what I was wanting to get.
So I do a little of both, you know, so as a collector, I'm not a dealer, you know, dealers, they have no issue, coins come in and coins go out, you know, so, but as a true bonafide collector, I don't like letting them go, I really don't, and I struggle with that, I do, you know, but there are those times when, you know, you want to free up some of your financial resources, I'll get them gone.
You know, I look at coins, the bank notes, the art that I collect, uh, some precious metals, the gemstones, I look at them as assets. You know, you have people that, that flip houses, um, and I flip coins, you know, um, I may find a coin on eBay or rock on, on eBay for 50 bucks and send it in to get it graded.
Once it's comes back, now there's a viable price that I can affix to that particular coins. So I've turned to a $50 coin into a $500 coin that comes back as a 64. I may resubmit that very coin with the hopes of it getting a higher grade, and if it does, you know, it may become a 66 or 67 worth a thousand dollars.
So, you know, bought for $50 and now was worth a thousand. Put that out the market with the hopes of, uh, you know, heavy, hot bidding going on for this particular coin, who knows? I may, you know, the, the highest bidder may buy it at 1500 bucks, and so that's even better scenario for me. You do that a few times a month and you're good, you know, a few like that a month and you're good.
So it just, that's the fun in it, you know? Um, a lot of, I've heard different camps, different opinions, um, they, they don't think that, uh, numismatics or coin collecting should even be concerned or be regarded as an end type of investment but I mean, to be realistic about it, I don't know anybody who's serious about collecting coins and not concerned about the value of them.
You know, I'm not wanting to buy a coin for $5,000 and not be thinking in the back of my mind would I be able to resell this to re coop the money that I've just spent, or even perhaps get a higher price for it? If I were to put it back up there on notch and block. So, you know, what, another thing that I love about numismatics is uh, by and large, the value of rare coins that it goes up over time. And of course that it's a lot on the particular coin side, but I mean, I, since I've been in the game, I have, you know, I mean the value of my coin collection has, has grown and I'm happy about it and I give God all the praise for it. Sure.
Jesus Vargas: Coming back to your app, uh, how do you plan to get users? Something that comes up a lot with our clients in LowCode is that we build an app for them to, to fix something in their process or to resolve or, yeah, help with a pain they have, either in their business or somewhere else. Uh, so they know the app is valuable, they know that the solution is valuable, and then the next step is getting users. How are you doing that? How does that work for the TPG app?
Poobah: I'm going to be completely honest, I designed the app and have the idea for the app in mind really just for myself, right? I hope that i'm like, wow, since there is nothing like it on the market, it'll be a, it'll be something that's, that's a niche, you know, and that if I do put it to market, hey, I can make enough money to buy some more coins type of things, so.
And then you guys came along and took my idea and made it even better, and I'm blown away. If it's something that I know is going to skyrocket, um, because we're doing exceptionally well already. It's, it's free and in the beta, uh, beta phase stage.
And, uh, but to answer your question, I believe that, you know, it, the more that people, uh, the more people that know that it's available, the better. So what I've begun to do is make self-help or tutorials.
Jesus Vargas: Okay, that's very valuable, yeah.
Poobah: And I posted it on my YouTube channel, if you type in TPG tracker, uh, TPG coin tracker, you'll see, uh, my YouTube channel, and I want to crank out maybe just a few more videos, but there too, obviously we all have lives, it's not like I have a great deal of time to devote to video content, but it's just something that I do as I have the time, you know, uh, I can pay, uh, a company to do it, but it's just something that is more, you know, personal and endearing, like I could take on the challenge and do it myself.
So social media, uh, has its place in terms of marketing and getting the word out for, uh, my app or any app in particular. And, uh, you know, I think that if you have something that people will like, love and enjoy using, then other people will tell other people about it. You know, so word of mouth is just as important than the time and effort and resources you put into marketing and advertising.
Jesus Vargas: Yeah. And I think, especially in an app like yours, that is very process oriented, uh, an app faces a lot of pains, right?
It gives you the clarity because in your app, it pretty much gives you the instructions of what goes next. So you get a call in the next step is this, and then the next step is that, so you get a pretty, like a very clear user journey inside of the app of what you have to do next for each of your coins, which I think is, or I hope is valuable not only for you, but for the users that started using the app.
Um, and they see value, and they will be willing to, to pay a subscription or whatever price you'd have for them, for the app.
Poobah: Go ahead. Was that a question? Cause it cut out again. I'm so sorry. Um, was that..
Jesus Vargas: I think it's my internet. No, no, no, I was just mentioning that the more, since it's very processed oriented the whole app and the user journeys is very lineal in the app, I think that collectors will see a lot of value in something, in a tool, in an app like this.
Poobah: I agree. And, uh, working with, with, with LowCode, you guys have done y'all you guys have done a phenomenal job translating, uh, my vision to the app itself, you know, working with, with you and your team, uh, you know, I couldn't have done it all by myself. That's why I put people in charge and paid you guys good money to bring it to fruition.
And that's what I think other people should bear in mind, you know? Um, if you're good at something, then do the best that you can with what you've got. And then anything that's outside of your expertise, look for other people to help you, you know, no man is an island in and of himself, so it takes other people to get to where we need to be, you know, apps.
Jesus Vargas: Right, because you started making the app yourself and then you reach out to us, right?
Poobah: Exactly, yes, sir, yes, sir, exactly. And that, that's why you know, it, with bringing you all on board to assist with the completion of the app and putting the icing on top, it took it from good to better. And, you know, I, I want to venture to say best, but you know, I'm, I'm my hardest critic, because even as I went throughout the app using it for what it's intended for, I'm always thinking about, you know, what can I change or what could be different about this to make it better for the, the end user. So, you know, it doesn't just stop here, not the, now that the app is developed, you know, I'm gonna keep going as far as, as it possibly can go, uh, for the overall user experience, yes sir.
Jesus Vargas: Yeah, I mentioned that I probably might, in the other episodes, I already have mentioned this as well. An app is like a child, it never ends, right? You always have to be there adding stuff, changing things, uh, eventually users have feedback and you want to implement that idea. So it's like a never-ending process that you always have to be updating.
I always say to clients, if you look at the app store or the play store on your phone, you'll see like Facebook, the Facebook app is updated every week and most of them are so it's like a never-ending process, but at least you get something which is good and it works great.
Then you put it in the hands of your users, start getting feedback, then do changes based on that feedback, like you're using the app, people are using the app, and then it makes it easier to do things rather than just come up with ideas.
Poobah: This is true, very true, very true, absolutely.
Jesus Vargas: This was a great episode because we learn so much about collecting coins, numismatics. Where, where can people find more about you, your collection? You mentioned the TPG, uh, is that the name of your YouTube channel, TPG or is Grandmaster Poobah?
Poobah: If you just, if you Google TPG, which stands for Third Party Grading, uh, so TPG coin tracker, um, and you'll see, you know, the, the website and just directly for the app itself.
The website for the app is TPGtracker.app. Uh, YouTube channel you can just, uh, you can do a search for TPG coin tracker and you'll see it, uh, for some of the, uh, self-help, uh, uh, video tutorials that are put together and, uh, still plan on doing. Um, for Poobah and you can go to a, I've got a nice exhibition, I'm really blessed in the area of graphic design, so I like to do presentation and showcase a lot of my coins, um, BTW...
Jesus Vargas: I've seen that website and it looks really nice, yeah, where you have your collection.
Poobah: Thank you. Thank you.
What's the link for that website? T
BTW as in Booker T. Washington, btwcoins.com. You may have to put a www in front, um, but it points toward, uh, one of my Adobe, uh, portfolio.
I've got an online store, uh, poobahgallery.com, um, I put some of my products on, there are different pieces that, that are for sale, um, and I'm still working through that as well, so, um. But yeah, feel free to reach out to me at any time, if anyone has any questions I am on Facebook, uh, if you type in, uh, Grandmaster Poobah, you can find my page and I'd be more than willing to answer any questions about, uh, coins and collecting, uh, uh, If you need to know God, I got you there too.
I'm very, very spiritual, you know Jesus, because I have to say this, nothing that, uh, I've accomplished in this life has been on my own. I give God, the Lord Jesus Christ, all the credit and praise, and, um, because I keep him first. I have been excelling year after year after year without fail. You know, uh, life comes with hardships and, you know, learning experiences, but, um, because I've kept him first and I continue to do that, you know, he's never letting me down.
So, and hopefully that helps somebody out there that's listening, you know, don't give up on life, you know. If your, if your passion is collecting, keep learning, keep striving, do the best that you can with what you got, when it comes to building an app, any great, innovative idea that you've got, go to it with God first and foremost, and he'll be the one to lead you and guide you and then put people in your path to help you reach your goals like LowCode did for me.
So yeah, by all means, man, feel free to reach out to me at any given time, and, um, you know, uh, I just want to let everyone know that, and if I don't get with you right then and there, I will eventually follow up with you so. But Jesus i'm grateful, thank you so much for having me on today and, uh, having me as your special guests, it's a blessing and an honor for me, thank you.
Jesus Vargas: I appreciate your time, it was a great episode, thanks for joining
Poobah: Absolutely. .