S2 Episode 8: The Future of Design Agencies and Software Development Firms

Welcome to the eighth episode of season two of the LowCode Podcast! In this episode, we sit down with Andrew Daniels, Head of Design at FlutterFlow.

Discover how FlutterFlow is revolutionizing app development with its community-driven roadmap and drag-and-drop builder. Whether you're a non-technical founder or a seasoned developer, learn how this platform empowers you to create with speed and flexibility.


Jesus Vargas: Hello and welcome again to another episode of the LowCode Podcast. Today we have with us Andrew Daniels. He's the head of design at Flutterflow and I'm really excited to have him here so that we can learn more about the new boy in the blog, which is Flutterflow in the No-Code space. So Andrew, thanks for joining us today.

Andrew Daniels: Yeah, no problem. I'm excited to be here.

Jesus Vargas: So tell us a little bit more about the story of Flutterflow. In the podcast in the second season, we've spoken with a lot of no code, let's say platform founders. And usually what they're started is a no code app, like a pretty design, but no code app. And then at a certain point in time, all of these platforms are growing and becoming more robust, but at the same time, there are certain limitations. And I see based on my experience and what I know about Flutterflow, Flutterflow. by being built on top of Flutter, you just don't have those kinds of limitations. So how, like why is it until 2021 that Flutterflow came to be alive and that didn't happen? I mean, there are a few others that do kind of the same, but not with the, maybe the model, the speed that Flutterflow has done it.

Andrew Daniels: Yeah, there's, so I'm not necessarily a founder. Abel and Alex, Abel Mingitsu and Alex Graves, they Graves, they are the founders of Flutter Flow. They approached me before they went to YC. I own a design agency and they sort of approached us just off of Upwork. I took the call in a Starbucks and you know, Christmas shopping right before it was like October 25th. They asked me to redesign their mockups that they had gotten from another designer off of Upwork. I did it that night and they implemented it the next three days. And then they pitched it to YC and got into YC. And then I sort of been, I've been working with them ever since. I joined them full time right before we launched at Google I.O. in 2021. So it's been a fun year and a half now, almost, almost two years. or I've been with them for two years and it's just been, it's been amazing. When they approached me with the IP. 

Jesus Vargas: How long ago were they working on the product before you came on board?

Andrew Daniels: about a month or two, not very much.

Jesus Vargas: So when they pitched at YC, they just pitched an idea, but they didn't have a product yet.

Andrew Daniels: They didn't have a product. They had been working on it for like two months. So they had developed basically a very simple drag and drop, uh, builder in Flutterflow and it was very, very, uh, rough. They had launched a beta as soon as they had pitched and got in. Um, and people have been using it for over two years now. Um, I remember when I first started, I was, well, I was actually trying to learn Swift, um, when they had approached

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Andrew Daniels: me because I had run into the problem the developers I was working with or my agency, we were only able to do so much in design and we wanted to sort of move into that development space. So I was trying to teach myself Swift and I was terrible at it. I'm really glad I didn't have to do that. Flutter, float came around and I caught on decently quick. And then I've been able to be a part of the team and help, yeah, just provide insight and design guidance. I'm in charge of almost every aspect of the design of the Flutterflow product. It's been a lot of fun because it's a tool I use every day. I mean,

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Andrew Daniels: it's crazy, right? Like it would be like designing Sketch or Figma. I get to do that for Flutterflow. And I think Flutterflow is so much more than even those tools, because it turns all of your designs that you visually build into code and you can pass them off to developers, you can pass them off to clients. You're not stuck to the platform either, and you're not stuck to just templates, pre-designed templates, right? You can use our pre-designed templates, which will help you build faster, but you're not stuck there. You can build a totally custom design in Flutterflow and implement any user experience, you know, nuances you want, animations. We've come really a long way. And the team has been really good at launching features that help our builders produce better products. end users and also for clients and businesses.

Jesus Vargas: How can they ship features so fast? Everybody on the NoCode space talks about that. Nobody else does something like that. How do they do it? Is like being on top of Flutter, is that an advantage in order to ship features?

Andrew Daniels: So one, that's part of the reason why I joined the team. They're amazing. All of the developers on our team are just next level.

Jesus Vargas: How large is the team right now?

Andrew Daniels: We're about 16 people. So yeah, Flutter definitely helps. Flutter is an amazing language in and of itself, right? Even when, like I had been designing apps for Flutter for about four years. I had worked with an agency out of Austin and they were sort of early adopters. to Flutter, so I had been familiar with Flutter. I'd worked with a few developers, and it was amazing how quickly they were able to pick up the language. And also, they could translate my designs into Flutter better than developers I had worked with in Swift, Kotlin, and Java. So it's already a powerful platform. And then, yeah, the Flutterflow team is just amazing. We also, and I don't want to steal any of Able's thunder. Able's really good at guiding us on this V0 mindset. So, um, if you've been a part of our, and some of this is terrible, but it's also really good, right? It's, it's getting not even, not just an MVP feature, like an MVF, but like, what's the bare minimum of a feature that we can do. Let's get it out there. Let's see how people use it. And then let's iterate on it. Well, um, we do a lot of that sort of V0 stuff. And Abel has done

Jesus Vargas: Does that mean that there are a bunch of features that get lunged and later on they don't evolve? Like you take them out of the product?

Andrew Daniels: Um, yeah, some of them just sort of fall off. Some of them get improved, right? Like we, we launched comedy in the, in the, uh, in our project builder and a UI builder. Um, it was very V zero. It was sort of, you know, wonky. Um, and then people started using it and they started, you know, communicating and commenting. Um, and so we were like, well, people are using this, so we better improve it. So we implemented tagging and, um, the ability to, uh, have red notifications on each thread instead of just, you know, you click it once and they all go away. Things like that and widgets as well, right? Like, oh, what's a good widget for this? Well, anyways, yeah, for widgets that are used often, we try to implement those and improve on those so that our users can, like our text field widget, we're launching a lot of really cool updates. around text fields, around components, because our users are using that stuff and finding, you know, like, hey, I can't do this, or I would like to do this. So we're getting around to actually launching those things. So that’s how great… 

Jesus Vargas: What drives the roadmap of the product today that it's still quite early maybe for Flutterflow? There's so many things to do. Like what drives, is it like, is it a, from the bottom up, is it the other way around? Like you guys decide what to launch, is the community asking for certain things? Are certain clients willing to pay for something and you build that?

Andrew Daniels: Yeah, so we have a great enterprise team that is in communication with some very large companies around the world. We have a good partnership with Google Cloud. And some of our features are coming from sort of enterprises or large agencies that are asking for certain things. Most of it is from our community. So we have 350,000 builders, which is quite amazing in like a year and a half. There's other platforms out there You know, we're ahead of us in popular voting and certain platforms and, you know, they're like, Hey, we have like 50,000 builders in a year. And I was like, which is great. That's, that's amazing. Like 50,000 users in a year is amazing. I don't want to like, you know, it's incredible, but I don't know, man. It's been amazing. It's been awesome to be a part of this team and to see our community. 

Jesus Vargas: Are the builders coming, I call them builders, developers that use Flutterflow, are they coming from Flutter or are they mostly non-technical people learning?

Andrew Daniels: Nope. Our goal, I think, or our target market is Flutter developers.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah, okay.

Andrew Daniels: I see a lot of no-code builders and I see the product for myself. So, my perspective on the product is very different than Able and Alex, who which is their company, right? So like they can push it and whatever they're doing is working. So, I mean,

Jesus Vargas: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Daniels: I'm not going to argue. But I see it as like any, any nuance that I can put in there for designers or non-technical users, um, making it more intuitive, um, where they can come in automatically know the UI, um, they, they automatically know how to build things and connect things, um, based off of like Figma, Protopi, Framer, Webflow, like little things like that. Um, I want to do that because I see this as a, as a tool that will open up the product development cycle, um, and be able to launch. I don't know any kind of application faster than before. Like when Framer sort of launched six years ago, um, there wasn't really no collaboration in design. It was all, you know, sharing files and maybe envisioning, like you would, you know, upload sketch files or Photoshop files to envision and you could comment on it, you could share it that way, but there was no like collaboration, real-time collaboration in design files. And then Figma came along in browser tool, cross platform. quite amazing. They really turned the game up, which is why they were acquired for $20 billion by Adobe. And I see Flutterflow, and this is my own personal opinion, I see Flutterflow as sort of being able to do that for the development space, the product development

Jesus Vargas: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Daniels: cycle, not just design, design, development, iteration, project management, teams. being able to be involved in that now. Now it's not like, well, we need to update this button text. Okay, ship it to a developer, create a ticket, let them iterate on it, push their GitHub, go through review, go through QA. Now it can all be done by somebody that's on technical, which is, it's probably scary for developers. I don't see it as being scary at all. I see developers as being needed to develop. more complex problems than changing the text of a button.

Jesus Vargas: right.

Andrew Daniels: As a designer, I hate changing text and designs. I'm like, okay, no, I don't want to change this from, I don't want to add an apostrophe in this, you know, dummy copy of your website. Like these are important to me. So I could feel that developers are the same way. They want to focus on the really complex things.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah. So why do you think that Flutterflow might be seen today as a no-code app builder? Is it because it was easy? I think it's an easy audience to launch something because it's very receptive. But if the product is geared more towards more technical people, why has it been so popular in the no-code space?

Andrew Daniels: I would say, so I think our official statement would be we're a low code tool, right? So like low code, no code, like you can utilize both. We're not necessarily as no code as like Adalo or Bravo HQ or, you know, like things like that. Like you can use the same thing.

Jesus Vargas: But that means that the product will get more technical as you keep evolving.

Andrew Daniels: Exactly. Yep. But also, uh, our goal would be to simplify that technicality. Um, whereas before, you know, you would have to write cloud functions in firestore. Like our goal is to, is to create a no code builder for, you know, uh, cloud functions so that you can say, Hey, every single day at 9 a.m. send a push notification to users that equal this, you know, that you can set up logic, same thing with our action builder. And it's just that is sort of amazing, that visual action builder that we have, because we're trying to democratize development to non-technical users in a visual interface, where we're not taking away the power of developers. Developers are still needed for complex use cases for enterprise, like banks and law firms and... medical companies, like all of those cases, they need to be solved as well. Right. And we want to be able to solve that. And you can do that by adding custom code, using APIs, adding custom actions. You can do almost anything in Flutterflow. And which is amazing. Cause I mean, I've been building no code since day one. Like my first portfolio was on Adobe Edge, animate, and then Dreamweaver. And then, you know, like. WordPress and you know, I taught myself web development. Um, so I started coding, you know, my, my stuff, but then I just recently, you know, switched over, I mean, I've done Shopify and Squarespace and, um, Wix, Weebly, you know, and, uh, and Webflow, you know, and I love, love Webflow. You know, it's amazing. And Framer too, like I've, I've been there as part of Framer's like permutations of their product. It’s been amazing to sort of see their adjusts and adapt and change what they do. Um. And I just feel like they have a really good trajectory right now.

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Jesus Vargas: So where do you see, I mean, FlutterFlow  is still a young product, but where is it going to and who is it built for and who is it not built for? Because something that I've seen, I was being with these founders and people like you that started fairly early in these projects, they launched and then they start figuring out that the money is on the enterprise, whatever niche, it's not a niche, right? Market,

Andrew Daniels: Yeah.

Jesus Vargas: let's say. So they launch like pricing is very low. There are a lot of features that freelancers and solopreneurs and people like that want and have, and then the product starts evolving because the money is not there. Is that kind of the same strategy that you and Vishen will have on FlutterFlow?

Andrew Daniels: No, we have a good enterprise team and we're building stuff for enterprise, but that's not our focus. Our focus is for everyday builders, developers, I would say teams, you know, like startups, project, you know, development teams, right? Agencies. I come from the agency world. I have a big place in my heart for all agencies and delivering client work, you know, and being able to deliver something fast, you know. It always pained me when, you know, some entrepreneur who really didn't know much about software was like, cool designs in Figma, could I have the code for that? So my developer can, you know, implement it. I was like, okay, obviously you don't understand. I'm amazing at design and these are just like PNGs, buddy. Now you can do that though. Now you can, you know, you can either design in Flutterflow or you can do it in Figma and then implement it in Flutterflow or Gap, right? I don't know if I'm primarily in Gap actually. and I implement stuff in Flutterflow, and I can do it one-to-one, pixel perfect. And that's what I love about Flutterflow. It gives you the ability to just match these pristinely.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah. So that means that so, so far you have an enterprise team that handles that type of client, then you're targeting developers. So who would not be a good client for FlutterFlow? are no coders?

Andrew Daniels: you're going to be able to do with Flutterflow? That's a great question. Yeah, no, I mean, no, colors as well like we've, we've seen a proliferation of those types of builders beyond Flutterflow, the beautiful  thing about Flutterflow right that other no poodles do not like they don't have right there's there's some, but they're all limited right.

Jesus Vargas: Yes.

Andrew Daniels: I guess I don't know if I should name them but.

Jesus Vargas: I'll love that. No, yeah, that's fair.

Andrew Daniels: Some no code tools are for web. Other no code tools are for mobile only. Other no code tools are for web apps, right?

Jesus Vargas: Yeah.

Andrew Daniels: The beauty of Flutterflow is it's for all of them. You can do, I mean, I wouldn't suggest doing a website in it, but you can. Web apps, you can do in a native app. I mean, man, there's never been anything like this for native apps. Like this pervasive and this robust, which has been. 

Jesus Vargas: In my opinion Flutterflow is the best low-code native app builder. Is it there yet for web apps?

Andrew Daniels: It's getting there.

Jesus Vargas: Getting there. Is that a priority a priority for 2023 or not so much? 

Andrew Daniels: It is. We're already implementing better web performance. So our goal, I mean, the Flutter team is behind improving their web performance, right? Like they're launching, I mean, Flutter Forward is just around the corner. I hear they're going to have some big announcements. And our goal is to better provide our users. When they build a Flutter app for the web, we want it to perform 10x better than just a regular Flutter app even.

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Andrew Daniels: So that's our goal. And we're already improving that. We're going to be adding like a publish button directly from the canvas, where you can just boom. You can already do that. You can deploy directly to the web on a subdomain in Flutterflow, which is a lot of fun. We need to improve some of the responsive stuff. You can do everything in Flutterflow, but it's not necessarily easy to do it in Flutterflow. Um, and by that, I mean, HTML and CSS, they have flex, right? So you could do like, Hey, I want three columns on desktop and two on mobile and, or two on tablet and one on mobile. Right. Um, it's a little harder to do that currently in our setup. Um, and our goal is to improve that. Right. And the way that our team builds, I mean, we'll, we'll have it taken care of. 

Jesus Vargas: That's gonna happen tomorrow

Andrew Daniels: Yeah, it's going to be this year, you know, probably this quarter. Um, our team is just,

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Andrew Daniels: yeah, I can't speak. I've worked with probably 100 development teams. And developers are awesome. I've worked with some really good developer teams. And I've worked with other teams that just, you know, maybe they're not experienced enough or, you know, they just don't have what it takes. Or, you know, there's better at other things, right?

Jesus Vargas: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Daniels: The development team at Flutterflow is superb. They're top notch. I mean, just the ability to implement what they implement, the amount of polish, and guidance that they do is, it makes me thankful that I’m. 

Jesus Vargas: What is the secret sauce though for such a great team? Is he hiring the right people? Is he then believing on  the mission? Is the building a top of FlutterFlow

Andrew Daniels: No, I mean, I think it is hiring the right people. And I tell Alex and Able to that all the time. I'm like, I don't know how you get all of it. Like every hire is great. We mesh well, we all have one goal in mind. Most of us are builders or developers. So like Will just joined the team. He's a builder. Davoud, he works on our support team. He's amazing, like amazing builder in Flutterflow. He just- He can do anything. It's quite amazing. Harsh is the same way. We have different members of our team that really enjoy building in Flutterflow. And that helps us all want to produce a quality product. And Alex and Able do a great job of keeping us on task and moving us forward.

Jesus Vargas: What is the main goal this year for the company in terms of the product?

Andrew Daniels: Well, I'll give you my two cents. Anyone else, or the team in general, I think we all want to just improve the product to get it to a certain point.

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Andrew Daniels: My goal personally would be to develop out design systems and template libraries, similar to like Tailwind or Untitled UI for Figma, right? that allow you to build quicker and then be able to adjust designs and stuff. My goal would be to build those things out. Will is going to be helping me do that and find a better way to implement that stuff into Flutterflow. So when you come to Flutterflow, you automatically get a thousand elements that you can use in your designs, your applications.

Jesus Vargas: Didn't Flutterflow bought a company that does that or hired someone that was building some UI kits? Didn't that happen a couple of weeks ago?

Andrew Daniels: Yes, so Will just got hired. He was building out a Flutter Go, which is a UI kit for FlutterFlow.

Jesus Vargas: Right, right, right.

Andrew Daniels: So we just hired him. He's been awesome. We just did a live stream this morning over UI UX. It was a lot of fun. I got to tell the story. He actually founded a startup and he came to my design agency, Kaleo, and wanted to build an app on Flutter Flow. And so I told him, like, yeah, let's do it. You know, you have a small budget, but like, I'll tell you sort of the ropes and then just get as far as you can and I'll come in and fix everything. And he taught himself how to build and flow in a weekend and built 75% of the app in a weekend. And I was just, I came in, I was blown away. Uh, yeah, it speaks to his intelligence and his ability to learn.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah.

Andrew Daniels: And then hopefully it speaks to the intuitiveness of the platform as well, where it all made sense, you know, so. But yeah, my goal is again, I'm a product development cycle guy. I've been in design. I know how launching products are. Software is really hard. We want to make that easier. And I would like when we enter 2024, I want people that aren't building on Flutterflow to be 10 steps behind or 20 steps behind already. That would be my that's my personal goal. That's my vendetta.

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Andrew Daniels: It takes a lot of work to get there, you know, and it's nothing against any other tool or anything.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah.

Andrew Daniels: It's just, I want to make this process easier. I want more products to launch. I want to empower entrepreneurs, developers, designers, and teams to be able to launch products faster, iterate, find out what works, what doesn't work. Um, and I feel like Flutterflow allows that. Like we, my agency, Kaleo, we were just working with a client. Um, they had an MVP. They had two weeks to build it, which is not ideal at all. 

Jesus Vargas: I'm gonna go.

Andrew Daniels: But we were able to start design on Monday, deploy to test flight on Saturday, and they were able to

Jesus Vargas: Wow.

Andrew Daniels: submit to their, to their, they have, they have a small accelerated program they're a part of, and so they were, they had to submit something, so they were able to submit a full on mobile application. that did about 75% of what their mobile application needed to do. All of the UI was there. There's just some, some backend stuff we needed to really iterate on, but it was really cool to be a part of that. So.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've done a lot of projects. We've done like 270 plus projects. And it's really cool to see idea to life in a very short span of time.

Andrew Daniels: Yeah. Yep.

Jesus Vargas: It's exciting, and it gets the founders excited as well. I have a couple additional questions. One of them is, there are some people that say that Flutter is, why Flutter and not React? There's a larger amount of people that know React. maybe make more sense. Why do you think that Flutter was a choice instead of React?

Andrew Daniels: Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. I would say a number of things. One, Abel and Alex were both at Google. They were both working on the ML team. 

Jesus Vargas: okay.

Andrew Daniels: in Google Maps. They were building and they were trying to do a startup before they started Flutterflow. They were trying to do a startup on Flutter because they wanted to do cross platform. and they found out how hard it was to build mobile apps. So they wanted to democratize that or make that process easier. But React and React Native, it's like, okay, you choose one or the other. You can't do both at once, which is really sad. Whereas Flutter, you can. So that would be a huge strength for Flutter 

Jesus Vargas: True. Yeah.

Andrew Daniels: And you can also do Mac apps. I mean, it's amazing. I can like... do an app in Flutterflow and I've done this for clients. It's mobile, it's tablet, it's desktop and it's for web. And it's just

Jesus Vargas: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Daniels: like that. You don't have to, you can do it all in a visual builder. I'm not a developer, I'm not technical at all. Even when my iOS stuff fails to deploy to that store, I have to ask a developer, could you just summarize this for me? Like, I'm gonna get this

Jesus Vargas: Hahaha!

Andrew Daniels: whole computer speak, you know? I try to be really good at certain things and just optimize that, you know, and leave that burning away to other people. But it's been really fun. So.

Jesus Vargas: And then final question, you have the agency as well. It's a design agency, right? And then you started building software with Flutterflow. Do you use any other, what's it, app builder like Flutterflow? Any other NoVelo code or traditional code?

Andrew Daniels: We do Webflow for websites.

Jesus Vargas: Okay. Okay.

Andrew Daniels: And then yeah, Flutterflow and Webflow are the two things that we use at our agency. And then a lot of our, you know, clients are just design only, you know, they're like enterprise software, they have their own development teams. We just provide UI, UX, product design. But my, I mean, I'm, I'm barely involved in that anymore. My partner, my business partner, Chase Meyers, he is doing a fantastic job. We have a an incredible team of designers, very talented. They're delivering constantly. We have a group of Flutterflow developers that we work with that sort of help push those products to market. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun.

Jesus Vargas: Do you envision more design agencies getting into the app, like software development, or

Andrew Daniels: Yes.

Jesus Vargas: traditional software development firms getting into low code? I still see a lot of negative something when like even Flutter Devs dismiss FlutterFlow. 

Andrew Daniels: Thank you 

Jesus Vargas: So do you see like designers are gonna take advantage of that? Or do you eventually think that Flutter Devs will embrace Flutter?

Andrew Daniels: Oh, this is a hot take. Then it's probably disagreed upon even within our team. But if I could code everything myself, even when I write websites, I can code HTML and CSS, Pixel Perfect as well, anything I want. I would rather do that than work in WordPress or something, sometimes, right?

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Andrew Daniels: It depends on the product and everything else. If I had the power to do everything that Flutterflow provided me, and Flutterflow only provided me a little bit, I won't say that. I don't know. I see it as more valuable with somebody that it opens up doors rather than somebody that it optimizes the workflow. So that's how I see it. And again, We're trying to push this out for Flutter devs and developers in general, um, because it does provide. And that's another thing, like all of this design stuff that I'm working on. That's the value that we provide developers, you know, you no longer have to even create, if you're a solopreneur, if you're a solo dev, if you're a dev agency, um, if you could just work off of, uh, templates and, you know, if you have a thousand variants of web app stuff, mobile app stuff, uh, basically native designs, template screens. and you could almost piece together an application, almost any application, that's the benefit to developers for me. And then the ability to do anything you want. Like our Flutter, our custom code just got a huge revamp. It's very nice from what I hear. The only code I write is the OpenAI integration. And I just write the prompt and then copy the code over.

Jesus Vargas: Right, exactly. As we all do

Andrew Daniels: It's super cool. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff happening on that front. But yeah, I mean, I would say it's for both. I would see it as more beneficial to people transitioning maybe into development or designers being able to now code their designs and pass it off to developers. And then developers can take it. They can export the code.

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Andrew Daniels: They can add it to GitHub. They can do anything they want with it post-Flutterflow. But that's the amazing thing, right? Before Flutterflow, if I wanted to do a prototype, it was just that, it was a prototype. Like it was a bunch of JPEGs stringed together, maybe some animation, maybe a GIF here or there, nothing interactionable, unless you use like Protopi, which still, like you can make it interactionable, but it's still just PNGs.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah. images, right?

Andrew Daniels: Yeah, Flutterflow came along and I see it as an amazing prototyping tool. That's just one aspect, right? Like...

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Andrew Daniels: One aspect is you can utilize it for prototyping. You can do a whole onboarding flow. You can get real user feedback. You can create records. You can pass dynamic data. That's amazing. It's, it's incredible. You can do that all with the no code book. And then, you know, you can produce quality applications that are business ready. I mean, business ready. We just launched, um, I don't know how much I'm supposed to say, but there's an app out there in the wild that. downloaded, that got downloaded a million times in one day by one of our enterprise clients. And it's amazing just that ability that you can truly build something like that in a no-code space. They're able to do it in a month as opposed to six months, which is what their original product, their product schedule was. So that's where I see Flutter Flow and again, probably a hot take. But as a designer, that's what I want. I want to provide design assets and the ability for developers to come in and utilize stuff that's beautiful and that they can produce like best practices within their applications. And then for designers and agencies and entrepreneurs, they can also come in and build out whatever they want in a visual interface and also use those templates. You know, I mean, I think Tailwind just did an amazing job. in providing templates for Vue and React and building applications. And that really upped the quality of applications that were being developed.

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Andrew Daniels: So my goal would be like that, but for no code 

Jesus Vargas: Yeah, OK. That's very cool. Andrew, it was great having you here on the podcast. Thanks for joining today. 

Andrew Daniels: Cool. Thank you so much. It was.