S2 Episode 4: Finding Success in Niche Markets: The Ultimate Strategy for Thriving in a Crowded Industry

Welcome to the fourth episode of Season Two of the LowCode Podcast. Our guest for this episode is the great Geoff Roberts, the mastermind behind Outseta. 

Dive into a thought-provoking conversation about Outseta's unique features, its tailored solutions for both technical founders and non-technical no-coders, and the explosive growth in the no-code space. From insightful discussions on industry trends to an exclusive look at Outseta's future plans, this episode uncovers the challenges, opportunities, and innovations that are defining the membership business industry. 

Whether you're a budding entrepreneur or an industry veteran, join us for an inside look at the strategies and decisions fueling one of the most exciting players in the digital market.


Jesus Vargas: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the LowCode Podcast. Today we have with us Geoff Roberts, he's the founder of Outseta, which is a very unique tool that allows no-code platforms to have subscriptions and payments, and it provides a very nice suite of add-ons for a no-code app. So Geoff, really excited to have you with us today. How are you?

Geoff Roberts: I'm really excited. Thanks so much for having me 

Jesus Vargas: Cool, so why don't we start by you telling us, like the elevator pitch, about Outseta. What does it do? Because it does a lot, I think.

Geoff Roberts: It does. Yes. It can be hard to grasp it first. Outseta is an all-in-one membership software platform. So what that means is we look at membership style businesses. They can be SaaS products, sort of traditional membership sites, online communities that charge for member fees. And we deliver a set of tools that pretty much all these businesses need. So you'll need subscription billing and payments to... collect payments from your customers. You'll need authentication to log users in and out of your site or product. You'll need a CRM to track your members. You need email tools to communicate with your members. You need some help desk tools to provide customer service. So it's sort of a membership business in a box. The core idea is you can deliver your product or website or community however you want. Kind of hook it up to Outseta and you have a fully functioning business quite quickly.

Jesus Vargas: Is there, do you compete with one tool out there in the market or with several, or do you just compete with multiple tools, like one tool for emailing, one SaaS for subscriptions, one SaaS for different things?

Geoff Roberts: Yeah, we compete with everybody to some extent, covering the categories

Jesus Vargas: Right. Yeah.

Geoff Roberts: of software that we cover. So I think of our biggest competition as the founder that wants to go out and buy the best in class tool for CRM and billing and marketing and help desk and integrate them all together. Our real competition is convincing an early stage founder that using our tool set and having all these tools perfectly integrated from the get go is actually more valuable. and it's going to help you launch faster and be more successful than if you do sort of the status quo of integrating five or ten different tools together.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah. And then Altara has like emailing help desk, CRM, etcetera. Why did, why did you decide to launch those things and not other features? Like what, like what was the MVP? Let's start there.

Geoff Roberts: Yeah, it's a really interesting question. So in general, the feature set is what we view as the common denominator features that every subscription business pretty much needs. And the business is a classic example of being born out of scratching our own itch at a previous software company. Um, I was sort of the business user of my now co-founder, Dimitri was the CTO and I was going to him saying, you know, we need to integrate Stripe for billing, we need Salesforce for. CRM, we need HubSpot for marketing automation and Zendesk and stitching all that stuff together. We sort of realized like everybody is doing this. Everybody needs these same tools. There's a huge amount of effort required to do this, particularly on behalf of a single founder or a small team. Let's sort of build the equivalent of what Shopify has built for e-commerce for SaaS or subscription businesses.

Jesus Vargas: Did you first look into the no code space and then decided to build Outseta or you started building Outseta and then came into the no code space?

Geoff Roberts: Yeah, we started building out set up point blank, not for the no code space. We were targeting developers and generally technical founders that were launching SaaS products. That was our initial target market. That's what we are as a business ourselves. But a couple of years in, we sort of organically got discovered by the no code community. And what we discovered pretty quickly was the all in one nature of the product. The fact that it was pre-integrated. is that much more valuable to a less technical founder who doesn't necessarily have the skillset to assemble the perfect tech stack. So today our customer base is largely split between more technical founders and no coders. But I think the name of this podcast is really aptly named for us. At the end of the day, where Outsetter really shines is you can use it completely without code. You can also integrate it completely with code. But because we were built for a code-first audience, there's a lot of sort of firepower under the hood that you might not expect in a traditional no-code tool. And we can

Jesus Vargas: Mm-hmm.

Geoff Roberts: sort of flex up and become this low-code solution that does a lot of things that other no-code platforms don't.

Jesus Vargas: And then do you think that when you're talking or thinking about new features, who are you building those features for? The technical founders, the no coders, or do you build a feature and then build a documentation for the no coders to be able to figure things out?

Geoff Roberts: Yeah, I think at this point, our mindset is basically like we've really honed in on your subscription or membership business of some sort. Certainly, there are different shapes and sizes of subscription or membership businesses. But we look at our feature set and what we're going to build as, you know, do 80 percent of subscription or membership businesses require this particular feature? If the answer is yes, we will build that feature. And I think. Now sort of the change in our product strategy is whenever we decide to build a feature, certainly we have to figure out how to build it from a technical perspective, but then we say, how do we make this feature no-code friendly so that a completely non-technical user can use it? And what we realized is doing that, yes, it makes the product more accessible to no-coders, but at the end of the day, ease of use is helpful to a developer as well. So we're kind of serving both audiences.

Jesus Vargas: Coming from the technical background that you come from working at a previous SaaS and then building, etcetera, and then finding this very lively space of no coders trying to build things without a technical background, what was your first impression of the no code space? Did you think like a bunch of newbies trying to code something without having the background? Have you seen like good, robust products built in no code? Like what has... What was your first impression of the space?

Geoff Roberts: Yeah, my very first impression certainly was a few years ago, and I think it was when no code was closer to its infancy. And I think even just over the last three years, the quality of the tools available to no coders have accelerated and gotten just so much better. So I do think some of my initial impressions were these are kind of simplistic tools that are really going to be not necessarily used by beginners, but could only take you so far. And I think my perception of that over the last three years has dramatically changed. Probably the biggest trend that I've seen this year in no code is developers flocking to no code, uh, two or three years ago, I would mention no code to developers and I literally get like laughed out of the room. Uh, today, a lot of the best developers that I know on the planet period are saying, Hey, can I use no code tools to, you know, accelerate speed to market? And. make my life

Jesus Vargas: Wow.

Geoff Roberts: easier and give me more time to focus on coding and instances where I need to code. So I've seen that transition happen a lot and certainly the complexity and general impressiveness of products built on NoCode has gone up dramatically too. We have multiple customers now that are doing millions of dollars in revenue on NoCode products.

Jesus Vargas: And do you think in order to build those products, do you need a technical background? Is learning logic enough? Like, what do you think, if someone's trying to get into no code or low code, how technical should they get, how technical should their education be?

Geoff Roberts: Yeah, I think there's kind of two things that I always come back to when thinking about this, this question. Um, one is point, point blank. I think the term no code probably doesn't do people many favors. Um, it seems to imply that you need no technical skillset in terms. In order to use no code. And I don't think that that. is true. And the example that I would give is like, if you take a truly non-technical person, and you put them in Webflow, they're going to be completely lost. It's going to be completely overwhelming.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah.

Geoff Roberts: So while it's no code, and you don't need to write code, Webflow is a great example. And they've sort of a little bit moved away from the term no code. Webflow is a tool built for designers. And if you don't have a design background, you're going to struggle. So I think But in general, I do think...

Jesus Vargas: should we lose the name though? How should NoCode be named in order to be more palatable?

Geoff Roberts: Yeah, I think visual development is probably a better direction. I know naming things is important. I don't perceive no code as being this negative thing that's a problem. I do think it is the name that the industry has come to accept and I'm fine with it. I do just think that... The one problem is like this perception that a completely non-technical person can use it and use it effectively. If you don't have a background in some fundamental technology concepts, you're gonna struggle with no code no matter what.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah, absolutely. That's true. Now, Tzeda, you have hundreds, thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people using your platform, trying to build something. And I think SaaS has been a trend for many years. But I think that SaaS has become a trend for solopreneurs, entrepreneurs to try to build something, get some model-recruiting revenue, and a couple thousand dollars, or whatever, $10,000, or whatever the number is. But I think it has become like, everybody's goal.

Geoff Roberts: Sure.

Jesus Vargas: In your company, you see a lot of these types of people trying to build something. What trends, what topics, what do you see that is working and what is not working in the membership space in the MRR world?

Geoff Roberts: Yeah, it's a good question. I think in general, like within our customer base, one of the interesting topics is we have these three use cases that are pretty big. One is managing online communities. One is managing what I'd call a traditional membership site where you have some sort of content that you're charging for access to. And the third is SaaS. Indie hackers across the board are interested in all three of those. But those are very, very different beasts. And Indie hackers kind of have the same objective with either one. To your point, they're trying to build that recurring revenue stream and give themselves some degree of financial freedom and whatnot. But in short, I mean, first of all, if you're building SaaS, you are going to need technical people and developers and all of that. And I would say a SaaS business is the most attractive in my opinion, for a slew of reasons. But the timeframe to really get to significant recurring revenue most often is substantially longer than the other two options. Sort of the I don't want to call it a fast path to riches, but the ones where we see companies

Jesus Vargas: Mm-hmm.

Geoff Roberts: launch and accelerate the most quickly are the content driven membership sites. I would go so far as to say if you're an individual person and you've created any sort of online content that you think is valuable. you should throw a paywall up in front of it and see if you can start making some recurring revenue out of it. Like it's so fast and easy to do that that I think that's actually probably the best place to start. And then with these online communities, online communities are great, but I think online communities take constant engagement. And something that we've seen a lot is people launch these communities and then their excitement for them sort of fizzles out. So there's pros and cons of all of them. I do think you're spot on with your comment that like everybody is trying to do this now. So this is this like really crowded market. And I think the thing that ultimately differentiates people is people that come in and are looking for really underserved markets and not trying to, you know, build in markets that are super crowded and competitive. Those are the companies that we tend to see succeed the fastest.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah, okay. Yeah, I think at LowCode we've seen kind of the same very niche products, especially SaaS are doing great. And by great I mean maybe, I don't know, $5,000, a few thousand dollars a month. They're so niche that nobody else has looked into that market. So they serve a niche audience with a great product that works great for them.

Geoff Roberts: Yeah, I was going to say, I think it's great that so many people are becoming entrepreneurs and so many people are starting these projects. But I also think, you know, if you go on Twitter, everybody out there is sort of flaunting the best version of themselves and their successes and making it sound a lot easier than it is. And you know, I'm not the first person to say it, but the indie hacker world is. filled with abandoned and lost projects. It takes a lot more conviction to build this type of recurring revenue than, you know, sort of popularized in the media.

Jesus Vargas: Absolutely. It's hard and then it requires so many things. It requires not only building the product, so let's say a technical knowledge, but also growing a business, getting clients, getting paid, reducing churn.

Geoff Roberts: for sure.

Jesus Vargas: It's complicated. There's so many things that are involved in that. And then that leads me to my question. How has that worked without Setup? Like, did you originally build something, a bunch of features that later on decided to take out because it was not... didn't get part market fit. Like tell us a little bit more about that story of how Outsider came to be. And then

Geoff Roberts: Yeah.

Jesus Vargas: how has the process been from the original idea like scratching your own age to today.

Geoff Roberts: Yeah, the way I would describe our own sort of journey and how we decided on the feature set is honestly, it wasn't that hard. Like we lived in the context of a subscription business previously, we talked to a lot of other founders of subscription businesses, and we distilled the feature set to the features that we knew all these people needed. So for us, we had an interesting startup idea in the sense that it didn't really need to be validated. We had a lot of conviction that people would need CRM tools and subscription billing tools and email marketing tools well into the future. The thing that was unique about Outsetter was this concept of can we bring all of these together in a single platform? If we do that, is that going to be a better solution? We always had a very high degree of conviction that the answer to that was yes. The challenge for us was... This is not building a single piece of software. This is not building a CRM or an email tool. This is really building four or five different software products. It's a huge undertaking. So I think for us, the learning was, first of all, our MVP, in order to deliver on sort of our stated value prop, had to include all these different features. We weren't delivering the value that we wanted to unless we have this complete feature set. So in reality,

Jesus Vargas: How long did it take to build all of these features?

Geoff Roberts: Two years, it took us two years to even deliver kind of the basic MVP of the product. And then from there, the way I describe our journey in short is two years to deliver an MVP, year three we struggled mightily, year four we started to grow, and then year five and we're into six now, we started to grow pretty quickly. And I think the learning in year three there was even if you had the basic features, I was going out and I was pitching this product to... technical founders and saying, you know, look at what we've built. And they kind of shrugged their shoulders and said, wow, you've built a pretty shitty email tool. There's like a hundred other email tools out there that are better. And they were right, to be honest. So I think so many people look at their business through the lens of like, why isn't somebody buying my product when they should be looking at it through the lens of why would somebody buy my product? And the hard truth was, We just needed to keep chipping away on our product functionality to get to the point where the CRM was competitive with other CRMs. The email tools were competitive with other email tools. And it took us three, four years to get to that point.

Jesus Vargas: And that space or those different spaces, those different tools, there are some great tools out there that do email, that do CRM, and a lot of them are either extremely cheap or sometimes even free or like a freemium. So you're competing with products that might not cost money or might cost just a few dollars a month. And actually today, like outside of price point is pretty low.

Geoff Roberts: It's, yeah, it's very low art

Jesus Vargas: Are you like in the $30 range?

Geoff Roberts: $39 a month is the entry level price point. And our argument to people is if you really look at like a billing system, a CRM, an email tool, a help desk, a reporting tool, all these tools that we displace outside as an absolute bargain. And I believe that in my heart of hearts, there's always going to be people that just say, I'm going to use every free tool as possible for as long as possible. And honestly, those people tend to not be great customers anyways.

Jesus Vargas: Absolutely. Right. Yeah. So $39 a month is your starting price. Do you think that's a good price? Do you plan to increase the price? Especially, I mean, yours is a unique tool, but if we look at app builder tools or form builders, traditional in the no code space, we're seeing a movement of these companies in their infancy just launching and putting a price tag, whatever it is, just to get up and running, get some revenue. And then when they start to think about pricing, they're like, the 20, 30, $50 a month price is not gonna work for us. We need to go to a hundred, couple hundred dollars a month in order for this to work out, in order to hire more people, in order to grow, to compete, to pay for ads.

Geoff Roberts: Yep.

Jesus Vargas: How does that work without setup?

Geoff Roberts: Yeah, it's a really interesting question. Coming out of previous companies, one of the things I told myself I would never do again is under price a SaaS product. I always said, I like, if I do this again, you want to be one of the more premium price point products for all of the reasons that you just named. That being said, if you look at outset as target audience, we sell the startups and not even just startups, we sell to like day zero startups where. They're bootstrapped by definition. They have no budget. So I think that that really dictates that we have a very accessible entry level price point. For us right now, that's $39 a month. I'm the first one to tell you it is incredibly difficult to build a viable SaaS company when you're charging $39 per month. So there are a lot of things that we've done to accommodate for that. The two in short. How we really make money as a business is not on that subscription fee. We take a 1% fee on successfully processed payments. So the idea there is we give people access to our tool set very inexpensively, and then we make more money as they make more money. So we kind of align our interests with our customers. That has...

Jesus Vargas: Aren't you allying in your interest to customers that will probably won't scale, especially in the indie world, makers, like a lot of them are, we see that a lot as well. Everybody wants their own app, we built an app for them. It doesn't scale. So is there enough volume for that market?

Geoff Roberts: Yeah, so with our successful customers, certainly that 1% becomes meaningful. But to your point, a lot of these projects never go anywhere. And one of the downsides of the market that we serve is selling to early stage startups, we're always going to see high churn rates. It's just, that's what you see with small businesses. We have this sort of weird dichotomy where if a company does go on and become successful, they almost never churn. The churn rate is essentially zero. But for companies that don't develop revenue, they do churn at a very high rate. And that's something we've had to plan for as we have constructed our business. There's a couple of things we do to actually accommodate that. We have to make some sacrifices in order for Outsetter to be a viable company. The two that are kind of popular are, we don't have a dedicated support team. Typically, like when we look at your traditional venture-backed SaaS company, when they start spending money aggressively on building out internal headcount, they build out a customer service organization and they build out a sales organization. We said, like selling at this price point, we don't have the ability to do either. So we are bootstrapped, we are intentionally a small team, we wanna keep the team as small as we possibly can. That means everybody does support, which is unpopular with a lot of people. We have engineers with 25 years of experience answering support tickets, so some people will. Be okay with that. Some people won't. A reality of working it out, Seda. And likewise, we have no sales team. We rely completely on affiliates to refer business to us. So that's made us selling at this price point something that can be done essentially.

Jesus Vargas: In terms of marketing, you mentioned affiliates now, but do you do a lot of, I mean, you have a good website, do you do a lot of content? How do you get clients? Is it mainly referrals and affiliates or do you create a lot of content? Because you're competing with very expensive keywords.

Geoff Roberts: Yeah, it's a crazy, interesting marketing challenge in general. So when you think about SEO, and SEO is the example I always give here. You know, if we tried to target CRM or email marketing or subscription billing, these keywords that are a direct descriptor, a direct descriptor of what we offer, we would waste years. And to be honest, we'd probably never rank highly for them anyways. So we've had to get kind of creative with how we do acquire customers. There's really three big channels for us today. The first is content. We started writing content the same day we started writing code. And I think what's unique about our approach to content and it goes back to that SEO challenge I mentioned, is we're not really writing content, targeting keywords and for sake of SEO. I look at our content as an investment in our brand. and I try to focus entirely on the quality of the content and sort of earn my place in the inbox of other founders. And I think we've developed a pretty good reputation for if we put something out there, the content is pretty good. So that's been one. The second has been referrals from affiliates. So we use a product called Rewardful for our affiliate program, basically just incentivizing people to publish content about Outseta  online and then pay them a... pretty generous commission if they do refer business to us. And the third has been partnerships with other technology partners. So Outseta is unique in that it doesn't actually help you deliver your product. It's sort of this engine for a business that is delivered on some sort of other technology.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah

Geoff Roberts: But Webflow and Stripe in particular are partners of ours. We have like listings on their website. On the Stripe website, it's basically like, you can use Outseta to run a SaaS business. On Webflow's website, it's more like, here's authentication and payments and a tech stack designed for Webflow, but those drive us an awful lot of business too.

Jesus Vargas: So that's interesting. Are you looking into more partnerships like this? Is there another Webflow sized business that might be interesting for us?

Geoff Roberts: Yeah, this has actually been a really interesting topic of conversation as we've started just like doing some 2023 planning. When we look at outset over the long term, one of the things and to be frank, I don't know the answer to this yet is at some point, do we need to offer some sort of front end or some sort of way to actually build a product ourselves? Admittedly, it's gotten easier to tack. you know, payments and other technologies onto all of these products over the years. So can we continue to be this engine that you plug into other technologies or do we need to deliver something ourselves? I don't really know the 

Jesus Vargas: especially looking at Webflow, that they're supposedly building users and logic, and so they're becoming a more ideally robust product. And I think they're building memberships, actually.

Geoff Roberts: They have, yes. Webflow is awesome. Webflow is like the most supportive partner ever. They are actually going, like even though we offer some competitive products, they're opening up APIs for us to build on so that we can more tightly integrate outside of with Webflow, which is awesome. But in general, with our current product strategy, our success is a little bit out of our hands, to be honest with you. We're always sort of tied to the success of the technologies that we integrate with. And I think we've realized that more and more over the last few years. Webflow has certainly been the big one. I think there's a huge opportunity that we haven't really aggressively gone after yet with Notion. More and more people are using Notion and Super and Outseta to build some sort of membership style site on Notion. And Discord is one too that is actually something we haven't focused on, but we're releasing a Discord bot next week and that will allow Outseta to be used to manage Discord communities. So. We're kind of always looking at what technologies are a good fit and also growing fast and with a large audience in their own right.

Jesus Vargas: That's great. So what are your thoughts regarding the no-code and low-code space? I'll say something, and then let's see if we agree or not. I think that no-code tools started, obviously, with a very clunky product. And they all are becoming more robust, especially on the back end, and adding more features.

Geoff Roberts: Yep.

Jesus Vargas: So usually, we start with pretty front-end no-code tools, like Softr and Glide and Adalo, especially the mobile first solutions. Very simple backends. And today, they start integrating with more opposed backends, or they build their own backends in order to handle more data. So in other cases, talking about Backendless, Xano, they start with a back end, and then they start building the front end.

Geoff Roberts: Yep.

Jesus Vargas: You're kind of not in the middle. You're more back end than front end. But I think that. they are all trying to do everything. So you already mentioned about building the front end. But how do you see the market in general? Do you think that most NoCo tools, like Webflow, they're adding users, memberships, do you think that they're all trying to do everything? Or do you think that eventually we'll find specialization, so back-end only tools, front-end only tools, let's say middleware, maybe like et cetera? What do think?

Geoff Roberts: Yep. Yeah, so as I look at Outseta specifically, the way that we've sort of thought about it is if you're building some sort of robust no-code product, you're going to need a front end, you're going to need a back end, and Outseta kind of ties those together. We look at ourselves very much as middleware. When I look at no-code in general, I would say I don't see too many companies trying to kind of build the full stack, the one that does come to mind. And there are examples, I think you can argue that Softr is doing that, although really their backend is Airtable. I think the one that has really done that to the greatest extent is Bubble. Bubble is, you can build a full frontend and a full backend. But I don't see too many, at least my understanding is not too many have taken that position. They either tend to be a frontend tool or a backend tool. And what I'm seeing at least a lot within our customer base is people are saying, we want to use something like Webflow on the front end. If we have a more robust set of needs on the backend that requires something beyond an air table, we'll use something like a Xano, for example, and making those front ends and back ends more compatible, I kind of think is the right direction.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah. So that means that the platforms become specialists in their niche, so front-end, back-end, middleware, and then you end up building a more robust platform because you have the best tools out there for each of the things they're supposed to do.

Geoff Roberts: Yep, I think so.

Jesus Vargas: Do you think there'll be some consolidation in this space in terms of bubble? I'm just making things up. Bubble buying OZ or bubble buying Zano. Do you think there'll be some consolidation or do you think we'll stay very fragmented?

Geoff Roberts: It's a good question. It's definitely something I haven't seen yet as much consolidation or mergers of any sort or really acquisitions of any sort within the no-code space, which is funny to me. I think there's a lot of great examples. I actually think while we're on the topic of bubble, like I think at some point we will see a great no-code tool to build software that does include a front end and a back end. something like Bubble, but I think it is something that doesn't exist yet, to be honest. I think someone's going to look at kind of what Bubble has taught us about this and start something new and build sort of Bubble V2, essentially. But I think there's a million acquisitions or mergers within NoCode that could make a ton of sense. I don't think this one would happen, but like if Webflow wanted to buy a Xano... all of a sudden they've got a great front end and a great back end.

Jesus Vargas: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Geoff Roberts: I don't think that will happen, but I think that type of thing natural fit. It'll be interesting to see what plays out.

Jesus Vargas: I mean, the big players, Webflow and the ones that have money, Bubble and Webflow, could buy something. And I don't know, Bubble, I think it's complicated because they kind of do everything. But I think for Webflow and acquisition might make a lot of sense. But at the same time, now that you mentioned about the next Bubble, I think there's, I see some platforms like Weweb, Draftbit, maybe even Flutterflow, that you have a low code or a visual builder. but a super robust backend, like a traditional code-based backend. And I call it like the no code to low code, and then the low code to code space.

Geoff Roberts: Sure.

Jesus Vargas: And I think that developers feel very comfortable in that space because they see their code. They feel visually, but they get the output is code and they can change it and add more code, whatever. I do think that the next bubble will be something like that. Like WeWeb maybe, but it's a great front end and then you can connect a very robust. and to it. So I think like eventually I want to say no code and code will merge but I think that developers will feel very much comfortable in something like that compared to a full no code or low code solution as the ones we have today.

Geoff Roberts: And bringing it back to Webflow, I think that's exactly what we're seeing now. So I actually hadn't made this connection, but the reason that they changed the name of their conference from no code conf to Webflow conf was because this year, most of what they announced that was kind of new was better support for developers and the ability to actually like build a front end. And I don't know if you've seen this, but you can build a front end in Webflow and export the code that Webflow writes for you directly into a react app. Now. So those sorts of things and that bridge between developers and no-code solutions is definitely moving in the direction that you mentioned.

Jesus Vargas: Where do you see Outseta in the next couple of years?

Geoff Roberts: Yeah, it's a good question. I think for now our sort of strategy is much of the same. I don't say this to be uninspiring, but like we're not launching a lot in the way of new features. Like our feature set is huge already and we're very upfront about that.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah.

Geoff Roberts: What I see us focusing on is really taking each of those feature sets and making them awesome and sort of getting closer to feature parity with the point solutions we compete against. So... If you look at ConvertKit versus Outsetter today, ConvertKit's a better email product. We want to get to the point where we're, you know, much more competitive with them on the email front and do that same sort of thing across all of the tooling that we offer. I think the big sort of question for us as we look at like a five year vision for the company is do we continue to be this sort of technology agnostic product that plays nicely with everybody? Or do we say, okay, we actually see an opportunity, we have this amazing subscription billing engine, we want to launch our own community platform or our own learning management system or our own website builder, or whatever it might be. We haven't gotten to that point yet, but it's something we're certainly thinking about.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah, it might make sense. Good. Jav, thanks so much for joining us today.

Geoff Roberts: Yeah, thank you for having me. This was fun.

Jesus Vargas: Thank you. Bye.