S2 Episode 3: From Zero to Hero: How No-Code Empowers Citizen Developers

Welcome to the third episode of Season Two of the LowCode Podcast. Our special guest for this episode is none other than Mark Piller, the mastermind behind Backendless.

In this fascinating chat, we plunge into the fascinating journey of Backendless, charting its evolution and unwavering commitment to user-friendliness that's suitable for everyone—from coding beginners to seasoned pros!

More than that, we delve into why no-code development isn't just a trend but a revolutionary game-changer that's transforming the entire industry.

Don't let this insightful episode slip by. Click play now and immerse yourself in the world of low-code and no-code development!


Jesus Vargas: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Low-Code Podcast. Today we have with us Mark Piller from Backendless. Backendless is a platform. It's obviously a backend platform. It's, I would say, a low-code platform, but we have Mark today with us, and he'll tell us more about Backendless, who uses it, and then his perception and his experience with Anoka Low-Code Space. So Mark, thanks for joining us today.

Mark Piller: Thank you for having me on your podcast.

Jesus Vargas: So why don't we start with you telling us who is back in List 4 and who is back in List not 4. Like who uses it and who, I don't even wanna say who should look at it, but I would say it's a low code platform rather than a no code. So if you can help us clarify who your client persona is.

Mark Piller: Sure, sure. Well, first I'd like to say that Backendless is a full application development platform, meaning that it provides an environment to build applications from start to end, both user interface and the backend. And then if you are into neither one of those and you just need to expose your core functionality as API services, we provide that functionality as well where you can build your APIs. for anyone who has an idea and want to turn into an application. You could be a citizen developer, meaning that someone who does not have a professional background in computer science or app development, or you could be a seasoned developer that knows Java, Android, Kotlin, iOS, Flutter,.NET, you name it, and you want to build your application with code. And in this you the backend that you could use for your application. In fact, when we started, we were focusing just on the backend. And there is a story for that. I'll tell you if you'd like on why we were focusing on the backend first. And during that time when we were strictly a backend functionality, our users are the developers where people writing code, writing web or native mobile, and there we're consuming back-endless strictly as the backend. Later on, we expanded the support for the functionalities that we provide, and we added the UI development capability where you can now build UIs and integrate them with the backend that we provide pretty much out of the box. As far

Jesus Vargas: Why did you decide to build this UI interface? Were users looking for a one-stop shop or?

Mark Piller: Well, that is part of the reason. But more importantly is when we started, the vision was to provide an end-to-end application development system

Jesus Vargas: Yeah.

Mark Piller: where you can build everything out of the box with one-stop shopping, where the speed of development is of the utmost importance, where you can do it fast. But we started

Jesus Vargas: Did you start with the back end? Because in the no code space, I see most of them start in the front end

Mark Piller: That's that you're absolutely right. Most of them start with the front end. Now, when we started the company, not only the vision was to provide an end to end application development capability, we wanted to provide scalability out of the box. Meaning that if you have one user, you get response time. And when you have million users, you shouldn't be getting exactly the same response time. Systems should not flow down as your user base grows Now, scalability is an interesting one because, first of all, it is a complex problem. Building

Jesus Vargas: Yeah.

Mark Piller: a system that can handle the traffic of millions of users without any performance degradation, it is a hard problem to solve. So we wanted to solve the problem first before we could add UI or before we started spending time in the UI. that exist today, back-endless is the one that will be able to turn your MVP into a full-blown product without any rewrites. Many other no-code solutions. You build it, you create that MVP, it starts taking off, more than likely you will be doing a rewrite because the system that you went with, if it is not back-endless, more than likely will not be scaling that well under why we started with backend first. And it took us quite some time. We had quite a few installations and at one point we basically saw that we can handle traffic infinitely. We have customers that are in the banking sector and logistics with last mile delivery handling thousands, We had customers that are coming from public and private universities where they put the entire business of university into the mobile apps and they were using back-endless for their back-end. And that really helped us to get to the point where we could say, yes, you know, any kind of traffic you have, the technology can handle it. Of course, there is a correlation of how much processing power you put in there in terms of the machine, CPU and memory. more hardware. Hardware is important, but it should not be the solution to getting the scalability solved. So once we got to that point where we could handle any traffic, then we expanded our team and started adding UIs. And some could say that, well, our UIs are lagging functionally, which is not true at this point where we are today. If you were to compare UI development capability of back-endless with many others, and those could include and Adalo and AppGyver and Wix and so on, you can accomplish everything in back-endless.

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Mark Piller: Your question of who the target audience is, whether they are low coders, no coders, or coders. Definitely coders. If you're writing native code in Android 

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Mark Piller: and JavaScript and Flutter and.NET, we have native SDKs that give you an ability to use our APIs. In terms of the UI, Let's talk about logic. The way you build logic in backendless, we provide a visual interface for that, which is called Blockly. It is open source and it is adopted by a variety of projects. For instance, Thunkable, a company that provides an app development capability, they also use Blockly. We do it a little bit differently, but the core of it is the same. And the idea is that pretty much any element in your logic, whether it's a loop or assignment or being able to invoke a routine or processing conditions, there are blocks and they look like jigsaw puzzles that you can snap together and the system automatically writes code for you based on how you snap that logic. So it is a visual programming, right? There is no code to face with. You can add your, by into that visual interface and work together. But if you are not good at coding, if you just don't know programming language, at the very minimum, you would need to learn our graphical interface for creating logic.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah.

Mark Piller: So it is not coding, but it's visual programming. Because for someone to write with logic, you need to start thinking algorithmically, which I think is very important for anyone who builds applications.

Jesus Vargas: Absolutely, yes.

Mark Piller: I run into a lot of people who claim that they are developers, but you start digging deeper and saying, OK, well, how would you structure? What kind of data structures you would use? How would you organize your data? How would you approach processing your cues and tasks and so on? And then things just start falling apart because they have no idea what you're talking about. And I think that's a general problem with a no code, low code space is because it attracts a lot of people, But some of them, and it's a good share, they don't have proper background or training or understanding of what it really takes to build an application.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that probably based on how you started, like building first the back end and then the front end, that's probably related to the types of projects and clients that you have, because I was looking at your website, and I see the logos that you have, like very large enterprises, banks, education companies. And probably because of that, you got more technical clients first than a typical no-code tool that they build a pretty front end, pretty basic back end. and then everybody comes in, it's like a honey and a fly. Everybody comes in, everybody can build an app, but then either they don't scale, they are a little bit clunky, they just look good, but the backend is not robust. So you started the other way around. Did that change how you approach the market? Especially, I think, in the no-code space, originally, a lot of them were like, let's launch in a very cheap pricing structure volume and then I see a lot of them moving into enterprise and raising the prices, changing the pricing structure. In your case you started maybe the other way around, that's my perception. Has that changed how you approach the market and price?

Mark Piller: Once we added the UI development capability and we demonstrated through a number of sample applications and some videos and some case studies that it's significantly simpler to build apps, where it does not require people with background in software or systems architecture or seasoned developers to build apps, expanded the type of audience that we can talk to. And as a result, we had to change how we talk to them. So it really broadened our horizon, where we can start attracting people who could not have an approach as before, because things were really, really complex. Well, and really complex mean that it would require writing code. In terms of pricing and in terms of the actual business model, There were no significant changes. We do have a product that we have is available as a shared hosting with our cloud that is available in Europe and North America. And it is a low price, high volume type of product where anybody can sign up and start working with Backendless. Credit card is not required. We do have an interesting way to onboard people. There is a system that we call Missions. onboarding experience where we give you tasks and the tasks could be as simple as, you know, uploading a file or creating a data table or inserting a

Jesus Vargas: Right.

Mark Piller: record into a table. Once you make those tasks, once you accomplish the task, the system detects that you did it and that you get a reward as a badge and then there's some bonus points. And at one point, one of the milestones in that experience is we open up a free plan because free plan, we do not give you free time, 

Jesus Vargas: Oh, that's interesting. Nice

Mark Piller: And you earn it by learning the system. And then once you learn a little bit, then you get that plan that doesn't cost anything. And it's perfect sandbox environment for development. It's very high limits. You can do anything you want, but it's not tuned to be used in production. If you are in a hurry and you don't want to go through our gamification, you can actually get that free plan, a one-time fee of $50, and you get that free plan anyway that doesn't cost anything.

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Mark Piller: That was an interesting thing that we did that is very different. Nobody does it that way. And it worked out pretty well because we get people who stick with Backendless. They're the ones that either committed their time to go through onboarding or they at least committed 50 bucks. And the stickiness factor is quite high. So people who stay with Backendless, they for the most part are going to be very excited about it. And if they're not, we basically hear and say, look guys, this is what you need to do here and there, and we typically update our program. But as far as attracting enterprises versus developers, so the cloud option is used by a lot of different companies, solo developers, small teams, and large enterprises. But those that grow out of our cloud option, we do provide an enterprise option where back-endless

Jesus Vargas: Mm-hmm.

Mark Piller: can run on premises. The way we architected back-endless is we're not using any of the Amazon, Azure, or Google Cloud.

Jesus Vargas: Oh really?

Mark Piller: Yeah

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Mark Piller: the cameras can run anywhere where Docker and Kubernetes can run anywhere.

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Mark Piller: Like your own laptop, it's not going to be a problem. So people and customers that grow out of our cloud option and they want to move to their own private cloud or their own data center, it is not a problem. They can stage an installation and run back endless on premises. And that opens up an opportunity for us to provide enterprise licensing and pricing and service enterprise customers much better. So with those two directions where there is a dedicated hosting and there is a shared hosting, we can attract enterprise customers and then provide them with a product that matches their needs, as well as smaller organizations and solar developers with our cloud option.

Jesus Vargas: the clients that you get, either enterprise or let's say SMBs or developers, what were they using before using Backendless? Is it usually a new project and they're like, Backendless makes more sense, it's easier to set up, or is it like we're moving from whatever AWS, Azure

Mark Piller: It's a good mix of a lot of different things. Some customers, they would have their own homegrown solution and they just realized that they're spending a lot of money and time of managing their own infrastructure. And they just want someone else to do it. They basically want to focus on the core differentiators, providing value to their customers, innovating within the app space and then doing whatever they're doing. back end and a system that they can where they can develop quickly. And that's where we come in because we do provide scalable back end. It could be either dedicated because by the way, there is also an option where we create dedicated cluster for a customer in on our own infrastructure. So this way they get the SLA that they want the five nine availability. There is a dedicated team that manages those clusters and they just don't need to worry about the servers. 

Jesus Vargas: Yeah.

Mark Piller: of customers, they just see tremendous value in terms of how much money they save by going with that option. I forgot the question.

Jesus Vargas: No, that's a good answer. And now I think I have a feeling that there was a recent move by the company into the no-code. I don't want to say into the no-code space, but let's say targeting the no-code builders, the no-code makers, or citizen developers, as you call them. Is that because you see volume in that space, or is it just to get on the trend of no-code and maybe get the word off of back-endless? into more people.

Mark Piller: I'd say that it is partially it is a trend because everybody's doing it. But for me personally and for our team, we see that as a natural progression for how applications are built. Quite often, whenever we are trying out a feature or we're testing things internally, we go with codeless, which is our graphical paradigm, we go with Codeless to create a little test or more complex test to test out our own functionality rather than writing code because it is faster and it is less error-prone. The code that is generated by a machine is going to be of a higher quality code than one written by a developer. So the benefits of that approach are obvious. We use it ourselves and if we use it ourselves you see the other developers will see the same benefit of going with.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah, okay.

Mark Piller: And that is the reason 

Jesus Vargas: But at the same time, aren't you getting these very non-technical founders trying to build something

Mark Piller: Yes.

Jesus Vargas: They don't know architecture?

Mark Piller: Yes.

Jesus Vargas: How does that work?

Mark Piller: Uhhh...

Jesus Vargas: Do you teach them? Do you have like, I don't know, like Backendless University where you tell them how to build a database or something?

Mark Piller: We provide to give guidance and more of a factor is like, look, we understand where you want to go. And it's very clear that you're lacking some understanding of what it would take to accomplish it. So we try to provide pointers of the areas where the gaps are, of what the kind of information that they would need to get in order to get to the point where they become more proficient. Some of those pointers, we create ourselves is the playlists on YouTube and couple of courses that we published on Udemy. And we're saying, look, if you are going to use Backendless, at the very minimum, you would need to become familiar with this. And here are the links. If we see that this is a person who is busy with their professional life and they're running an organization or their own business, and they just need to realize their idea, then we services because we do have a professional services arm that we can assist with application developer or just recommend people in the community who build applications for customers. But it is definitely a facet of doing business in a low-code space where you run with people the trade

Jesus Vargas: Not even logical

Mark Piller: right, like they just, they just, some people cannot think algorithmically, some people cannot think in terms of how to structure data or even procedurally, because you know, they could describe a use case, like, okay, when someone submits a button, you know, that order needs to go to, you know, someone who approves it on my side, and then we need to, you know, deliver a product. I'm just making things up. Here, if you're a technical person, you can start thinking, OK, well, there's going to be a database record. There's going to be a notification. And they open up the page. And you render it. So you start thinking. But those folks who do not have that technical background, they cannot dissect that problem into individual steps where each step would need to be implemented one way or the other with code or without code.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah.

Mark Piller: And that is something that is hard to teach, and you can break a big problem

Jesus Vargas: Yeah! That’s how we can make a living, translating those needs into software. Otherwise we wouldn’t be around. 

Mark Piller: We're breaking bigger problems into smaller problems and keep dissecting them until you cannot dissect anymore. In the essence, that's what engineering is about. And then for some people, it's just not their thing.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah, yeah. Is that why backendless is getting, let's say connected to tools like Zapier and Webflow and Bubble? Like do you think it provides a scalable, a very scalable solution with a no code and local interface? So like a very easy way of building apps, let's say Bubble, I don't wanna say very easy, but an easy way of building a front end with Bubble and then using backendless as the backend with Webflow. Is that like a good trade off? Like use this as a interface. It's easy to understand. You can't screw it up, but then you have like a super scalable back.

Mark Piller: Well, introducing support for ZAPE, Zapier, and Make IntegraMAT was because those systems, they support several thousand different connectors.

Jesus Vargas: Hmm.

Mark Piller: And we did not want to reinvent the wheel and start introducing individual connectors. And we see people run into scenarios where they need to connect back enders with Salesforce, or Monday, or Google Spreadsheets, or whatever. is just a low-hanging fruit to provide those integrations through Z-OoR rather than providing direct integrations. 

Jesus Vargas: But at the same time, you have quite a few direct integrations like Retool and DraftPaid and Bubble, Adalo

Mark Piller: We do. Exactly. Exactly. So just because Zapier could get expensive. And the same thing with Make. They could get expensive.

Jesus Vargas: Right.

Mark Piller: And what we see is that there is kind of not necessarily a wake-up moment, but a lot of people realize that building an MVP with Bubble can be quick, but it means that you would need to redo a lot of things if your application takes off. of bubble is, let's face it, it's not as scalable.

Jesus Vargas: Right.

Mark Piller: And people recognize that backendless fills that gap and provides a scalable back end out of the box. So it becomes a natural choice where you just can integrate your bubble front end with backendless backend. And that's the reason why we published a lot of those integration guides for various no code and low code front end tools for how to integrate with backendless bypassing Zapier or Make, which would be more expensive than going direct. See, our approach with just structuring an application is more compartmentalized, more disconnected than bubbles. Whenever you create a table in backendless, or upload a file, or create a messaging channel, those individual assets, they instantly get their own API. So you'll, let's say, create a table called Person. you instantly get full crud for the table that you can use invoke from rest or from any of our SDKs. If you create relations, you can start querying relations. And then whenever you build UI in back-endless, our UI consumes the back-end through the same APIs that it exposes.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah. Okay.

Mark Piller: With Bubblel, when you build a UI, it's sort of so hardwired with that back-end where things are happening, you cannot really disconnect it, which because it is so monolithic that it's hard to architect it in a way where it becomes, you know, so, and by providing that API for the backend, bubble developers can start just consuming data that comes from elsewhere such as backends.

Jesus Vargas: Right.

Mark Piller: And that becomes just a better architect and solution altogether in my very humble opinion.

Jesus Vargas: I agree with that. So if you've integrated quite a few no-code and low-code frontends like Bubble and Adelo, but at the same time you're building your own UI, your own frontend, why is that? Do you think that the bubbles out there are not enough or not good enough? Do you want to do something different? Are you targeting a different persona than Bubble and Adalo?

Mark Piller: Well, I think we can do it better for a number of reasons. For a number of reasons. One, let's just imagine that you're a bubble developer and you're integrating with back-endless. It means that every time you need to fetch data or update something in the database or run a query, you're actually going to be doing that API configurator and then providing the endpoint API and then wiring things for arguments to be sent to the remote, to the back-end, and the data in the back. That's a lot of work. With our UI, whenever you want to query the database from your UI, you essentially use just one codeless block, that the jigsaw puzzle, that in there automatically includes all of the functionality to run a database query and providing the response. And then we modeled our UI on top of React, which means that all of the things that React is really good at, and providing the data binding and separating the actual view from the controllers and the data models where they are, can point to each other through the reactive data binding. All those things are elevated into our UI builder. And then if you understand React, you'll be like feeling like fish in the water. If you don't, we still make it easy enough to kind of understand how to architect your UIs. So, and that I believe is just a better model. That's one reason. Second of all, the Canvas database is a real-time database, which means that if you have thousands of users who are looking at the same data set, if one user modifies it, and it's a public data set, let's say a sales organization, someone makes, gets a deal, they save an order and that someone accepts the order. Supporter organization can instantly in their dashboard see that there is a new customer. real-time database where we broadcast changes to the data to all the clients that have the data object in their, okay? And that is without any polling, it is basically push through web sockets, okay? If

Jesus Vargas: Right.

Mark Piller: you are building with back-endless UI builder, you get that reactive real-time capability out of the box. You don't need to do anything. If you're building with bubble, you'll have to jump through some hoops by integrating our JavaScript SDK establishing this connection and start building the listeners, that's more effort. Okay, so you basically get more out of the box by going with back-endless for both UI and the backend.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah. Are you seeing Bubble freelancers and agencies moving from Bubble to Backendless for what kind of apps?

Mark Piller: We see that there is a trend. We definitely see that for more of a business apps where the end users are actually business users. So...

Jesus Vargas: What are these business users using today as a database?

Mark Piller: A lot of them actually come from something as archaic as Microsoft Access. Or they

Jesus Vargas: Oh, so it's a full rebuild.

Mark Piller: store data in Excel, or they would have their own SQL server that sits on their network. And the good thing is that we provide an ability to import data into Backendless. Or if you run Backendless on-premises, then we have connectors that where to the locally running SQL Server or MySQL or Postgres and expose the data through back endless API, but still connecting to the database that already sits in there.

Jesus Vargas: Are you, are most of the apps and projects being built in back end lists, are they done by freelancers and like professionals, like agencies, or is it usually an internal IT department that stopped using whatever they had and now building your

Mark Piller: I'd say it's a 50-50 mix. Because the caliber of the customers that we get, they are organizations where they have their own IT departments.

Jesus Vargas: Mm-hmm.

Mark Piller: It really becomes a question of the time to market that they have, whether they need to deliver something fast, which means that they cannot allow for someone to sit and go through training. They need someone to start working right away. In this case, they outsource and bring organization. But if they have more of a strategic vision where they will be shifting to back-endless centric development, where all future projects will be going through back-endless, then they go through training. Sometimes they hire us to provide the training just to kind of bootstrap the organization, and then they use their own internal resources.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah. The agencies that are using backhandless, are they traditional dev agencies, or are they no kind of local agencies getting into the local to code space and learning traditional software development in order to use your platform?

Mark Piller: What we see is that we see an interesting trend with traditional development agencies. They engage with us and they move forward with the no code approach. So they build applications without writing code for the reason that they can do it faster. They lose some of the billable hours, but they win because they can turn in more projects in quicker period. in faster time.

Jesus Vargas: In your case, are you providing leads to your partners and agencies that work with you or are they bringing in more? leads directly to you

Mark Piller: We do. We get a lot of inbound requests for application development, for custom application development. We do have our own team, which is more of a for strategic projects, the ones where we would know it would be a customer where we cannot mess up. We cannot provide or leave any opportunity that someone messes up. So we plug in our own people. But for a lot of projects where we get inbound requests, we share the leads. with the development community that we have in our.

Jesus Vargas: Is there a lot of demand for these kind of projects? Would it make sense for someone looking into the space to build a freelancing business or an agency building projects in Backendless?

Mark Piller: There is a lot of demand and it is global. It is global. So we see it equally distributed between North America and North and South America, Europe, Asia and even partially Africa.

Jesus Vargas: What are you focusing on right now? Is it mainly building the UI or are there things on the back end that you still want to build? Especially, I talk with a lot of other founders, Couture founders, that we started with this with a good interface and there are so many features that we want or our clients want. In your case, I think that you started with a very robust back end solution now getting into the front end. in terms of the product for backend lists.

Mark Piller: So we made a significant investment into building out our marketplace. And our marketplace is basically a directory of all kinds of small, from small to very large type of components. The smallest component could be just a function, a codeless function that does something useful. You can put together a library of those functions or just one and publish it into the marketplace. And another thing could be, you know, a page template that has some logic. Or it could be an API service that does something useful. Like for instance, our own Stripe integration is a collection of API services that communicate with Stripe. Or it could be a complete application that we call Blueprint that you can publish, and then anyone can quickly create a new app from that Blueprint. They basically get a clone of that. 

Jesus Vargas: Yeah, so it’s like a template 

Mark Piller: Exactly, exactly. So we made a significant investment to enable developers to publish those type of products into our marketplace for a fee. up very soon where people can just start generating additional revenue by publishing their inventions, the things that they built into our market. So that's going to be one thing. And another thing that will be more, I'd say in 2023 time frame, is the support for business process in a 100% no code way, all graphical, where you can basically dictate kind of flow that the data needs to go through in an application. To give you an idea, if we take, for instance, let's say Uber, OK? Everybody understands Uber's model. But Uber's model consists of a number of applications. There is a driver's app. There is a passenger app. There is an app that customer support uses. I'm sure there are dashboards that exposed to executives. And all those apps are operating on the same data set. The driver app and the passenger app, they've got to be communicating, not directly, indirectly.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah.

Mark Piller: So it means that there is this additional system somewhere that coordinates that data flow. Someone had to build it. And it's probably more complex than each individual app that the entire system.

Jesus Vargas: Right, right because it connects to all of them.

Mark Piller: Exactly. Exactly. And we see people building fairly complex applications in back-endless. In fact, suite of applications for a specific solution. But there is a clear need to have this kind of centralized coordinator with all the rules and then workflows and business policies and so on that need to be governed and executed by the system. So we are working on the system that provides that level of coordination where you can describe and workflows and then build that main brain of Uber, but for your system, in Backendless without any code. 

Jesus Vargas: That means that you're targeting, I would say, me to large businesses, man.

Mark Piller: Yes, absolutely.

Jesus Vargas: Is that like your own internal Zapier or is it more than that?

Mark Piller: It's more than that. It's more than that.

Jesus Vargas: Okay.

Mark Piller: Zapier is great as the connectivity where something happens somewhere, you execute a certain function here, which is only part of it. Basically, it's trigger action type of relationship.

Jesus Vargas: Mm-hmm.

Mark Piller: But on top of this, there are conditions, and there are rules and policies. For instance, in an application, it it could make significant difference of the actual role of the user. Because if it is a user who is a sales manager, then there will be certain rules that apply. But if it is just a salesperson, there will be other things that apply. And then of course, you can get you can tweak Zapier to do those things because they support conditions and inject your JavaScript code in there. But it gets to the point where actually start doing coding within Zapier. And here

Jesus Vargas: Mm-hmm.

Mark Piller: we're talking about where everything is fully integrated. system where you can drive that kind of policy change or rule change or the actual workflows completely in a graphical fashion.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah, that's pretty cool. One last question. How do you get clients? How do clients find back unless if it is it referrals? Do you have like a marketing team that do content? How does client acquisition works today?

Mark Piller: We do have a marketing team that prepares content, publishes out there, but a fair amount of leads or customers that we get are just by the word of mouth. They do the research. They find various articles that compare technologies. We are in a lot of directories that list no code and low code tools.

Jesus Vargas: So, that means that people finding back-end lists are already aware of no code and low code as a term.

Mark Piller: Yes. Yes, that's right 

Jesus Vargas: That's interesting. Because at the end, what we need to do is get the word of No Code and Low Code out there so that more people find tools like yours or agencies like ours.

Mark Piller: Right. And then in this case, you know, it's the function of marketing, as I just, you know, this podcast, I'm sure, you know, someone will, will be listening and will pick up, perhaps will be kind of, it'll pick their interest on, you know, what is this no-code thing, or conferences, or, you know, videos, or just really all the traditional mechanisms of getting the word out.

Jesus Vargas: Yeah, cool. Mark, thanks so much for joining us today. I appreciate your time.

Mark Piller: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Jesus Vargas: Great. Check out Backendless.com to learn more about what Mark and his team are doing. And thanks for joining. See you the next one.